Reading your interesting responses, my dear readers, I had a nagging feeling that something was amiss. Then I recalled a promise I made.
One of LJ bloggers, _niece, quoted somebody else’s musings on seeming paradox or, rather, topic for discussion that I felt too unprepared to participate in. So I promised to ask the people “in the know”. You understand, being an atheist I am here just a medium, a vessel, an uninterested party with no ulterior motive. My interest is of pure curiosity for ideological position. Also I have no idea if summary of ideas and attributed quotes are true, I am only translating, you understand.
I’ll relay the topic and opinions in the thread to best of my understanding and translating abilities. Will do the same with your comments if there’ll be any.
Original topic quoted by _niece:
How did it happen that Protestantism, with its rejection of mandatory good deeds, or, rather, notion that they are not requisite for salvation, and with idea of predetermination (which theoretically should result in social passivity) – how P. managed to create the most progressive social systems in the world? As opposed to Catholicism, which stresses necessity of practicing good deeds and not just “salvation by faith alone”, as postulated by Luther – how, then, historically Catholicism became a pillar of social reactionism?
A possible answer, which does not offer complete explanation, is that P. lowered the status of a priest as an intermediary between a man and God, offered direct contact and raised status an individual man, thus encouraged partition between Individual and Social.
Her consequential question:
So, how, at what point that doctrine of Predetermination transforms into capitalist ethic?
[there is a lively discussion in comments, but before I relay that, I'd like to get reactions from the horse's mouth first, if you may]
I don’t think I am going to be of much help. But, I do need elaboration. What, specifically, is she referring to as
1. “the most progressive social systems in the world?”, vs.
2. “social reactionism?”
Thank you.
Wait, I meant to say: I do NOT think I am going to be much help. Whew.
fixed
1. It’s not her definition, it’s the guy she is quoting – and the source is @Facebook where I don’t have an account, so can’t tell you in context. I’ll venture a guess – he means Protestant charities and in general – American Protestant ethic, which, as universally known, has been the engine of American capitalism
2. It is a literal translation, since I am not sure what exactly he means, myself. I think he means European countries where Catholicism was dominant religion were known for inquisition, suppression of scientific thought, superstitious adherence to outdated canons and social structure and altogether poor vertical mobility of populace. [compare Netherlands and Spain].
Thanks for the explanation. I have no expertise on Catholic charity work vs. Protestant charity work, and I have no expertise on Catholic church misbehavior vs. Protestant church misbehavior. I do have respect for the organization which is called Catholic Charities. They do much good work.
The writer touches on interesting points:
1. Protestant belief in being saved by grace alone, on account of man being so inferior to God’s standard that man cannot earn even 1/100 of his way into heaven. Therefore, heaven is strictly God’s gift to man. Man is hapless.
2. The mystery: if, once saved, man is always saved: what prevents man from hedonism, and even a life of crime? Only God. If man is truly saved, then God works on his heart, constantly and over time, and man finds himself increasingly desiring to do right.
Even though even the best Christians will still deny God on a somewhat routine basis, it is generally the case that genuine Christians will become better actors over time. Thus, even though Protestants are completely free to misbehave and still be guaranteed to reside in heaven, God mysteriously works on our hearts, and we freely choose to be guided by our hearts in areas such as charity.
It is an interesting postulation that a) the freedom of action which is enjoyed by Protestants (without consequence of missing out on heaven), b) results in free choice to do more charity. I do not know if the postulation is correct, but it is interesting to consider.
I know that, for myself, when I became saved, I definitely spent a lot of time thinking this way:
What the heck?! I am home free! I can do ANYTHING, and still go to heaven!! Well, why don’t I? Do I really want to do that? Anything? Any bad behavior?
B/c I had complete freedom, I spent a good number of months thinking about that freedom: thinking about exactly what are the implications.
Conversely, were I Catholic, and thus not possessing that complete freedom, I would not have spent that time thinking about the ramifications of having all that freedom.
I knew I can count on you. Will leave a link @ original poster, maybe she’ll be interested enough to discuss further.
Thank you, Greg
PS
…and what are your thoughts on the connection btwn Protestant ethic and capitalism?
re drawing a distinction between Catholicism and capitalism vs. Protestantism and capitalism
The only thing which comes to mind is again the freedom thing, in this respect:
Protestants are free to take entrepreneurial chances and to then fail; Catholics are maybe obligated to do good in a way which hinders free-wheeling entrepreneurial freedom.
However, I am really reaching, and need to think more. I am not sure I want to stand behind my own formulation!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
related, but maybe trailing away from the topic under discussion:
capitalism vs. socialism/communism
Humans are both physical and spiritual. Capitalism respects the human spirit in a way in which socialism/communism do not. Socialist/communist populations become beaten down; lose hope and decline in energy.
Human dignity: Christianity vs. humanism/existentialism
A problem, with humanism/existentialism: if life is meaningless, if life has no eternal significance, then man has no dignity. Human dignity is an important element in a healthy culture and in healthy capitalism.
[Disclaimer: All opinions are strictly the opinions of this blog commenter. While being popular opinions in Texas, they are not necessarily popular opinions in Brooklyn! :) ]
I didn’t ask for popular opinion, I asked for yours. And received.
I do have objections/arguments to what you said (especially after demeaning 11-hr day at work…dignity? promoted by capitalism?), but I have only enough energy left for few exclamation points, a hot shower and slow shuffle to bed…
Thank you for your comments!